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Weekly Chatter: ProfileMaker 4.1.5 - Profile Editor - I'm perplexed
Tuesday September 9, 2003

Section 1: PRofileMaker 4.1.5 - Profile Editor - Im perplexed





Color Management/WorkFlow > Hardware and Software > PRofileMaker 4.1.5 - Profile Editor - Im perplexed




AuthorSubject: PRofileMaker 4.1.5 - Profile Editor - Im perplexed  
Vjeran Andrasic
Posted on Thu Aug 28, 2003 11:10 AM

Help me with this one please.

If you start Profile Editor and select two profiles (Source and Destination under A tab). Then under B tab pick *AdobeRGB1998* for Source and *EuroscaleCoatedv2* as destination, for example.

When you click RGB -> LAB button why does it choose (P) for perceptual between those two profile frames? Why does it let you choose intent for RGB to LAB conversion? Do you have to specify Intent for any profile conversion to LAB at all? Im a bit lost here.


Thank you for answers in advance.

Vjeran


Andrew Rodney
Posted on Thu Aug 28, 2003 11:15 AM

Once you make your edits and go to save the profile, you'll be presented with a dialog box that will allow you to make those edits in any of the three intents (one, two or all three). What you're doing at the beginning is defining the intent for the preview but you do NOT have to be forced to only edit that one intent. Go ahead and do an edit, then pick "Save ICC" and you'll see the dialog come up with two sets of check boxes (you can decide to apply the edit in either the proofing and/or output portion of the profile for any of the three intents).


Vjeran Andrasic
Posted on Thu Aug 28, 2003 11:23 AM

Lets say for example you select one ICC profile... a CMYK one.

It still allows you to select CMYK -> LAB intent and edit it.

Is there a point in making perceptual CMYK to LAB conversion since all colors will fit into LAB anyway?

Vjeran


Andrew Rodney
Posted on Thu Aug 28, 2003 11:35 AM

on 8/28/03 10:25 AM, IR - Vjeran Andrasic wrote:

> It still allows you to select CMYK -> LAB intent and edit it.

Lab is the connection space so what the software is asking you is what part
of the profile do you wish to edit. CMYK to LAB would be the preview portion
of the profile. LAB to CMYK would be the output portion of the profile.
Don't get too caught up in the LAB part but rather what's coming from LAB or
going from LAB.


Vjeran Andrasic
Posted on Thu Aug 28, 2003 7:29 PM

So basicaly it means there is no point in defining intents that convert into Lab?


Vjeran


Andrew Rodney
Posted on Thu Aug 28, 2003 8:05 PM

on 8/28/03 6:30 PM, IR - Vjeran Andrasic wrote:

> So basicaly it means there is no point in defining intents that convert into
> Lab?

You have to pick something which affects the previews but after editing, you
can apply the edit to that or any other intents for either part (Proof or
output) portion of the profile.


Bruce Fraser
Posted on Thu Aug 28, 2003 8:33 PM

The point of editing the tables that go from deviceRGB/CMYK to Lab is usually to improve the soft proof. In fact, those are usually the only kinds of edits I make unless the profile is really whacked, and that's usually a sign that something else was wrong.

I tend to accept the output that the profile produces unless it's really awful, then I edit the deviceRGB/CMYK-to-Lab table (if necessary) to make sure that what it shows me on screen is what I'll see on output.


Vjeran Andrasic
Posted on Thu Aug 28, 2003 8:38 PM

But then it can also affect CMYK to CMYK conversion, can it?

Vjeran


Bruce Fraser
Posted on Thu Aug 28, 2003 8:46 PM

Yes, it can and will affect CMYK-to-CMYK conversions, but

1.) I try to avoid those for anything other than proofing, and

2.) If the edits improved the accuracy of the soft proof, AS JUDGED ON A WELL-CALIBRATED MONITOR, it should provide a similar improvement to CMYK-to-CMYK conversions. (A soft proof is a CMYK-to-MonitorRGB conversiono the front end of that conversion is the same as the one used for CMYK to CMYK.)


Vjeran Andrasic
Posted on Thu Aug 28, 2003 8:49 PM

Great. Thnx for all this valuable info.

Vjeran


Andrew Rodney
Posted on Tue Sep 2, 2003 1:36 PM

I had to do some profile editing today and wanted to make sure what I wrote above was correct and made sense.

I want to edit a profile for ImagePrint by pulling a Midtone curve to snap it up. I pick "One ICC Profile"** and load the profile in the popup menu. Now it seems a bit backwards but the first option is LAB to RGB. That is the arrow to click to affect the OUTPUT (the output profile is an RGB profile so LAB to RGB indicates we are trying to correct the output table, that is the ultimate RGB values).

The other option is RGB to LAB (that should be the preview portion of the profile). I click the upper arrow and I'm asked to pick a LAB image to edit. So if I said you need to convert a file and open it for editing, this is INCORRECT. The intent you pick on the left side (example would be Perceptual) is used to apply a soft proof to the LAB file (this is only for preview I'm pretty sure but checking on it).

IF however I want to edit the preview portion of a profile, I'd pick RGB to LAB and I would need a file I first converted to the output space using this profile I wish to edit.

Be very careful because it's actually possible to ask for the wrong table and have a possible pit fall here: You could ask to edit the RGB to LAB part of the profile (preview portion) and when you go save the edits, you have the option of popping them into the output portion of the profile. This will screw things up whereby the edits will produce the opposite effect (you wanted to make a darker curve and you end up making a lighter print). This is due to "user error" but in a way, the software is kind of dangerous in that you can apply an edit and load it into the wrong table. IOW, you can ask to edit the preview portion and then apply that edit to the output table when you save the profile.

There does appear to be a bug in the software and I've written to GM to see if this is so. IF I ask when saving the profile to only apply the LAB to RGB (output portion) and NOT the RGB to LAB (keep the preview alone), I get an edit anyway (in other words, the print comes out darker which is what I wanted but so does the soft proof which I didn't). What should happen is the preview remains the same as the original profile but the output table gets changed. I'm not able to accomplish this.

**So the question is, if you pick "Source and Destination" and the Source is say ColorMatch RGB, does this mean you can only use this edited profile with ColorMatch? I think not and I'm asking for clarification. I think this workflow allows you to edit a file in the colorspace you picked INSTEAD of a LAB file.


Vjeran Andrasic
Posted on Tue Sep 2, 2003 2:24 PM

Phew. For me this post is really dense with information.
My next set of questions was about ProfileEditor anyway.


>> **So the question is, if you pick "Source and Destination" and the Source is say ColorMatch RGB, does this mean you can only use this edited profile with ColorMatch? I think not and I'm asking for clarification.

This is the way I see it. If you edit a LAB->RGB portion of destination profile with ColorMatch profile set as Source, in preview image window you can see how currently conversion from Source to Destination with selected intent is done (since you can only have loaded ColorMatch preview image). Edited Destination profile will still work with other Source profiles, but you can make edited Destination profile with specially tweaked i.e. Perceptual intent for this exact Source to Destination case. In case thats your standard workflow, I think you can *squeeze* a bit more, this way, from this particular Source Destination combo. But that kind of profile, in my opinion, only works really good with that particular S->D combination.
How and does it affect other choices of Source profiles. Hmmm... I think yes, probably.. in an unwanted way.
I think it probably affects LAB->RGB only of selected profile, no matter of source.
I may be wrong on all of this... but few tests can tell us something more.

I didnt quite get the part about beeing able ask for a wrong table when saving a profile.
Can you clarify that, please?

Vjeran


Andrew Rodney
Posted on Tue Sep 2, 2003 2:49 PM

--> didnt quite get the part about beeing able ask for a wrong table when saving a profile.
Can you clarify that, please?

When you start the editing process, you're asked to pick which table you want to edit. It's not impossible to ask for the A2B table but write that edit into the B2A table when done (and you're presented with that set of check boxes). IF you do this by mistake, you'll get a profile that basically puts the opposite edit you wanted into the profile.


Andrew Rodney
Posted on Tue Sep 2, 2003 2:52 PM

-->This is the way I see it. If you edit a LAB->RGB portion of destination profile with ColorMatch profile set as Source, in preview image window you can see how currently conversion from Source to Destination with selected intent is done (since you can only have loaded ColorMatch preview image).

Exactly. While you don't have to do this, the edits are a bit more "sound". Here's what I just got from good ol' Brian at GM:

This is correct, although I usually prefer to edit workflow, (eg Adobe RGB to Epson), because if I want to edit my output I want to see how the entire workflow worked together. For example if my Epson output is too red, is it the output profile that is too red, or the way my output profile is trying to match my source profile. If I edit the workflow I am more confident. In fact, I often will edit the softproof (A2B) tag first just to make sure that the softproof is representitive of the acutal proof, and therefore when I make edits I am confident in the change I am making.


Vjeran Andrasic
Posted on Tue Sep 2, 2003 4:05 PM


> When you start the editing process, you're asked to pick which table you want to edit. It's not impossible to ask for the A2B table but write that edit into the B2A table when done (and you're presented with that set of check boxes). IF you do this by mistake, you'll get a profile that basically puts the opposite edit you wanted into the profile.

Yes it can be serious if you accidentally check any intent under B2A edit.
What you can do is do one edit Source (i.e. Adobe Gamma) -> Destination (Printer Profile); save the edits (with proper checkers on); close and reopen ProfileEditor (just in case); then select Inkjet profile as Source and Monitor as Destination, then do preview edits and save em under A2B, but you already know that.
GM should remove word "Monitor" when you select any RGB profile (can you see it?). Its kinda confusing since it can represent working space also.

When you select Source -> Simulation -> Destination, what does "Simulation" stand for?
Im a bit affraid of this profile editing thing.

How do you select default intent for a certain direction of certain profile?


Vjeran
p.s. Is your machine also overloaded with various experimantal profiles? :)


Andrew Rodney
Posted on Tue Sep 2, 2003 4:15 PM

on 9/2/03 3:10 PM, IR - Vjeran Andrasic wrote:

> When you select Source -> Simulation -> Destination, what does "Simulation"
> stand for?
> Im a bit affraid of this profile editing thing.

That would be if you're doing cross simulation (like editing a profile for
say an Epson to mimic a Matchprint). Just add yet another profile into the
equation. RGB to CMYK to RGB (Adobe RGB to SWOP to Epson).


Vjeran Andrasic
Posted on Tue Sep 2, 2003 4:17 PM

roger!


Bruce Fraser
Posted on Tue Sep 2, 2003 4:22 PM

Other than optimizing Perceptual rendering for a particular working space as source, I tend to steer clear of the workflow edits, simply because it's all too easy to create a profile that's highly dependent on one or two other profiles, for a very small gain. (Factor in tailoring profiles for a specific light source, and things can get totally out of hand!)

That's one of the methods I use to cut down on the number of experimental profiles I have lying around...

My experience has been that a Perceptual table that's tailored with Adobe RGB produces very acceptable results using source spaces ranging from sRGB to ProPhoto, so the gains really ARE very small.


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